Resources on 3rd P Omni?

[Phyrebrat]

Hi all,

I want to write in the slightly dated form of third person omniscient. The problem is every time I start I end up slipping into close third. I know this is just something I have to be observant about but I can’t help thinking there must be some kind of tricks to help you write in omniscient third.

First person and third close work well for me but as a horror with fiction writer there are often scenes that I am unable to do justice too because I cannot show what is going on outside of the characters experience and perception. For example the character leaving a room and a window slowly closing (or something like that) when their back is turned, and they wouldn’t know.

So: I was wondering if any of you know of any good resources. I’ve just found a podcast on writing excuses about writing in Omni but I don’t hold up much hope for that podcast as it tends to be very self-referential.

 

[Yozh]

You might try Ursula K. LeGuin’s guide to writing “Steering the Craft” which has explanation, examples, and exercises for writing what she terms “involved author” point of view.

 

[Phyrebrat]

You might try Ursula K. LeGuin’s guide to writing “Steering the Craft” which has explanation, examples, and exercises for writing what she terms “involved author” point of view.

Thanks I’ll pick it up. Do you recall if there’s a preponderance of info on omni?

I had a lot of writing books when I began as a writer so I’m looking for something a bit more deep on omni if available.

 

[Swank]

You might benefit from taking an omniscient view of the action for yourself, and write what you see and know. That's what it is - a POV that sees what the character cannot, but what a surveillance crew might. Try it from a fixed place in the room at first, like a camera.

All these voices are ultimately just a camera angle and level of knowledge, rather than a type of grammar.

 

[HareBrain]

I’m looking for something a bit more deep on omni if available.

I don't know how much you'll find, to be honest. I'm not sure there's a huge amount to say about it, as it's the most "anything goes" narrative mode. From my reading of authors who use it, I'd say the main points are to have a fairly strong narrative voice (which I can't see being a problem), and to establish very early on that you are using it. After that, you can have long sections of close third without violating it, though it might be wise to have occasional reminders (e.g. by switching character). You already read authors who use it, so you have many examples. Like most other writing techniques I think it's a case of trying it and seeing (with feedback if necessary) what works.

 

[sknox]

I just did this search:
how to write third person omniscient
and got many hits. I took a quick look at some. Not any YouTube, as it doesn't make sense to me to watch a show about writing. Read about writing, that makes sense to me.

Anyway, lots of resources, several with examples, what to do and what to avoid, and so on. Maybe you could take a look at those, use what you find useful, then come back and ask about specifics?

 

[The Big Peat]

Thanks I’ll pick it up. Do you recall if there’s a preponderance of info on omni?

I had a lot of writing books when I began as a writer so I’m looking for something a bit more deep on omni if available.

@Yozh beat me to the punch here - it's not omni focused but it's generally fantastic as a guide to helping you think deeper and better about your prose, and there's a chapter in which she rewrite the same paragraph several times from different PoVs to help people understand the difference which I think would be very useful and was why Steering the Craft was the first resource I thought of on seeing the title.

 

[Phyrebrat]

You might benefit from taking an omniscient view of the action for yourself, and write what you see and know. That's what it is - a POV that sees what the character cannot, but what a surveillance crew might. Try it from a fixed place in the room at first, like a camera.

All these voices are ultimately just a camera angle and level of knowledge, rather than a type of grammar.

Hi. Thanks. Actually one of those things you’ve said above is actually what I was kind of after insofar as having a cheat sheet. When you mentioned a surveillance crew my mind went ‘ping’. I think it’s a great idea for me to think of a camera and camera angle. Thanks A.

I just did this search:
how to write third person omniscient
and got many hits. I took a quick look at some. Not any YouTube, as it doesn't make sense to me to watch a show about writing. Read about writing, that makes sense to me.

Anyway, lots of resources, several with examples, what to do and what to avoid, and so on. Maybe you could take a look at those, use what you find useful, then come back and ask about specifics?

Thanks for the effort. Sorry I should’ve been clearer— I know what omni is (so many of 70s and 80s horror novels are in omni).

@The Big Peat — I smiled when @Yozh mentioned UKLG bearing in mind the WhatsApp voice notes we’ve had over the last week.

Ursula it is then!

 

[Toby Frost]

There are probably some tricks you can use to show that it's omni rather than close. Off the top of my head, there are those Victorian-sounding storyteller-style observations about characters: "As it happened, Mr Jones was an observant man, because for many years he had", etc. There's also stuff happening that a POV character can't see but the author can: "While Bob busied himself with unlocking the gate, Steve watched the road behind him, and wondered..." And then there's head-hopping, which may be less advisable.

 

[Phyrebrat]

You know, @Toby Frost ‘s reply has me wondering if I’ve misunderstood the remit of omni.

I tend to write V close 3rd and am under the impression that it’s forbidden to them dolly out with the camera so to speak and give a more objective view. I also wonder if I’ve taken what I’ve seen here literally.

Head hopping isn’t going to be much of an issue for me, I think. I suspect certain types of ensemble fiction might be risky in that regard but I tend to write with a small cast. The Pegge & The Pendrel (my Victorian horror/weird novel) has multiple POVs but I tended to do a chapter per character which kind of keeps you on track re pov.

Thanks for the tips. It’s getting a bit clearer how I can approach this.

 

[Toby Frost]

Now you've got me wondering too! I think I tend to default to a fairly close 3rd person, which allows me to go into the character's thoughts but also allows fairly wide descriptions and brief bits of omni where it's needed to fill in details.

I wonder if this isn't a matter so much of consciously switching as changing the emphasis. It seems to me that a more omni viewpoint is inevitably going to be less bothered with specific characters' thoughts and more about "storytelling", perhaps with a wider canvas, less intricacy and a more intrusive narrator, even when it stops short of addressing the reader. Going back to your example with the window, there's a similar bit at the very end of Clive Barker's "Rawhead Rex", about the soil soaking up a monster's pee. In fact, Books of Blood in general has quite a "storytelling" feel, with quite a lot of authorial interjections (and is really well written).

 

[HareBrain]

I tend to write V close 3rd and am under the impression that it’s forbidden to them dolly out with the camera so to speak and give a more objective view.

It's "forbidden" if you want to keep it as close third, in the sense that it then technically becomes omni (and if you just did it once, it would be a bit jarring).

 

[Swank]

Mr. Greenault sniffed the sea air, blissfully unaware of the rifle crosshairs arrayed across his back. He allowed a moment of nostalgia - this sea coast reminded him of another coast in his teens, when everything had been simple. His would-be executioner, 400 yards away, was annoyed by similarly distracting boyhood reminisces, and hoped to that his earphone would let him know soon whether he was shooting Greenault or not.


...would be an example. Roving POV, the content of different characters' thoughts, yada, yada.

 

[Toby Frost]

Little did he know that...

 

[Swank]

Mr. Greenault sniffed the sea air, blissfully unaware of the rifle crosshairs arrayed across his back. He allowed a moment of nostalgia - this sea coast reminded him of another coast in his teens, when everything had been simple. His would-be executioner, 400 yards away, was annoyed by similarly distracting boyhood reminisces, and hoped to that his earphone would let him know soon whether he was shooting Greenault or not.


...would be an example. Roving POV, the content of different characters' thoughts, yada, yada.

I was thinking after I wrote this how it creates drama by an interaction that is entirely in the mind of the narrator and their omniscience. Greenault might live and never know about the assassin. But the action is the observation of the two distant characters and their thoughts. Which is one of the strengths of this POV - it can comment without commenting by simply providing the contrast.